Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

After guiding 900 plus Buffalo etc hunts.. the only rifle/cartridge one shot that killed 100% was when the heart was taken out.. or above center through both lungs.. or brain. I'm referring to killed 100%. (not 99 or 95%).. as we all know the 1% is what gets client or ph killed.
So when guiding, most of us want the hunter to only fire when his chosen rifle/gun bullet/arrow will reliably reach and penetrate the above mentioned targets.. then after the first shot,.. personally I ( pre) ask for follow-up shots until it is down. Sorry but I don't do waiting, smokes or such...
My no1 priority is not to be killed at work by a Buffalo etc.. ( or AD)..
Whilst hunters/ clients can try to bring/ invent/ acquire the best (at most any angle/ situation ) cartridges and bullet combos.. that is fine.. I've been there and done that myself.. but now after 28 year.. I long ago learnt its totally about perfect shot placement and damage, then it dies.. I've seen many slightly ill placed 577, 500, 458lott, 458wm bullets from experinced hunters... more so than 375H&H etc... and when I say ill placed I mean the bullet may have slightly missed, even by 1/2" or only taken 1 lung.. or low both lungs.. each looking good, lots of blood etc, but resulting in very live and angry dangerous follow up.
Personally.. Ive read of too many PHs who won't get home ever again.. my friend Glenn G I visited in hospital smashed up very very bad.. almost killed... 2 weeks later I had a confrontation with only binos in hand, 10yds from the 4x4..
So the hunt to me has 2 factors.. 1/ the clients first shot, waiting until the heart/ lung (or brain) can be taken out.. then all will end well... or 2/ we are being charged straight away.. or following up with potential change.. now only 1 thing will 100% kill the Buffalo about to paste you.. a Brain shot.. a solid or well constructed tough expanding bullet... 100% I'm saying.
And if I miss, I need another round placed better.. and if I miss again yet another better aimed and fired shot.
Every day for our hunt season, I go into the the field, my gear must be 100%.. all our rounds must feed.. none can be hot loads and jam.. We must rely on each other, and have a plan.
Yep a 454 Cassul will work at 40yds side on.. yes a 318, 45-70 or 375 or 458GBFKR will work passing through the right spot.
Sorry for the bla bla.. JMO
Back to lever actions.. a guide who knows his 4570 well, is a few rounds better of than an empty double in a battle.

@mgstucson​

You put my wonderings very well and somewhat more eloquent than I.

I have always believed that energy - Mass + Velocity - is extremely important. With out energy the bullet is not going to leave the barrel. Energy (basically Momentum) dictates how far a bullet will penetrate, all other things being equal.

Energy as far as effecting (the shock effect of the hit and travel through the animal) the animal is what I believe is very over stated in most accounts.

mgstucson said:

1. If energy is a "useless" number, then nearly every other writer on the subject including Boddington, Lott, Keith, nearly everyone, to a person, who could be named since gun writing came into existence, except you of course, has been completely wrong and should just stop writing, and we should all just listen to you.

Click to expand...

OK, what does energy mean, Kinetic Energy?.........

In physics, the kinetic energy of an object is the form of energy that it possesses due to its motion.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>

This same 550 Woodleigh FMJ at 2146 fps has a Kinetic Energy Value of 5623 ft lbs.



This 550 Woodleigh Soft at 21 yard Impact velocity (no muzzle velocity on this one recorded) 2100 fps has a Kinetic Energy value of 5385 ft lbs. Apologies for the out of focus photo.



Roughly the same Kinetic Energy with both bullets correct?..................

Which one of these two was able to "Transfer" more of that kinetic energy to target?

Below is a 400 Hammer considered a Generation 1 Copper CNC HP. At the velocity listed it has a kinetic energy value of 5261 ft lbs. At the time of this test, the trauma inflicted was extreme, due to the penetration I actually declared it as Buffalo Capable. Shortly afterwards several individuals used this bullet for buffalo, and the test work has proven itself once again. This bullet "transfers" far more trauma inflicted to animal tissue and or test medium than any conventional expanding bullet of the same caliber. But yet, it also starts out at nearly the same, or somewhat less Kinetic Energy...........



The next bullet we can look at is the 420 Raptor in this test at 2259 fps it has a kinetic energy value of 4758 ft lbs. Some less than the ones above. Yet, the transfer of trauma to animal tissue is massive, far far more than what you would find with the 550 Woodleigh, 500 Woodleigh, 500 Swifts or similar expanding conventionals. How do I know, I used many different conventionals in years gone by, and many 100s of Raptors on animal tissue. I have used this 420 Raptor many times on buffalo, plains game, even one crocodile. I have seen the trauma and damage first hand, and animal reactions to taking these bullets as well, you can "See" the trauma imparted at the shot. The damage done is massive, in fact my good Friend and test partner Sam Rose, we laugh every time we see or hear someone doing the autopsy after the shot, to a man the statement is always this "I have Never Seen anything like this"........... referring to the trauma inflicted.



So there is 4 different bullets, some of them close the same Kinetic Energy Value, some slightly less. Absolutely zero doubt of which bullet is able to effectively transfer that trauma, that energy to the intended target. For anyone that has experience in the field with these bullets, meaning all 4 types, and has studied the differences after the shot, there are no questions asked or concerns about Kinetic Energy. My contention is, I don't give a rats @ss what Kinetic Energy value a bullet has, what I care about is "How it can transfer trauma/energy to the intended target" What it starts out with is moot to me. While in the field I have never had anyone ask "how much energy does that bullet have?".......... Not once. I have had maybe one or two guys over the years ask about energy, and I had to reply "I don't Know"........ To me it is just not an important factor, I am more interested in how that is transferred to target. Not some value which can apply to any bullet regardless of how it transfers trauma, as in the ones you see above.

Now you can worship at the alter of the Great Gun Writers and others all you want to. You don't have to listen to me, I really don't care if you listen to my perspective or not. I have nothing to sell you, I have nothing to gain either way. I am not in the gun business nor the bullet business, I am not in the book writing or magazine writing business either. This is my opinion, mine only, do with it as you wish. If I can help a fellow shooter/hunter, all good, if not, then that is your choice. Enjoy the day...............

mgstucson said:

3. Since penetration seems to be your preferred means on measurement, and since you love posting data,

Click to expand...

This was YOUR statement that I replied to;

mgstucson said:

All the most recommended, best performing bullets for thick skinned DG (.375 300gr, .416 400gr, .458 500gr) have 2 things in common, SD of .3 or better, and must have energy over 4000fpe, the higher the SD and the ME the better. This, along with great bullet construction, is needed for deep, straight penetration, especially through heavy bone.

Click to expand...

It seemed that you were interested in "Penetration" and "Sectional Density" hence my reply to that statement......You were the one concerned about Low Sectional Density and deep, straight line penetration. I pointed out, there are other factors far more important than Sectional Density to achieve deep, straight line penetration. I suppose you do not or have not seen the 8 Known Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration?

mgstucson said:

Part 1: Take an identical types of projectiles, vary only the mass, keeping the velocity constant, and see if penetration changes.

Click to expand...

mgstucson said:

Part 2: Now take identical types of projectiles, vary only the velocity, and see if penetration changes

Click to expand...

You make a lot of reference to "Mass"......... I have to assume for our purposes mass is measured by weight of the projectile.. In some of your other posts you refer to mass as measured by weight, so I have to go with that process to measure mass for our purpose here. If you refer to Mass and the measurement is other than weight, then specify please.

In PART 1 of your statement above, that would be a function of SD IF your "Identical Types" is actual Identical in all Factors, other than Mass or Weight. We just looked at that.

PART 2 of your statement is correct, to a point, but again ALL FACTORS have to be equal other than velocity. In speaking of solids, some nose profiles perform better and deeper with higher velocity, other nose profiles show some gains, but nothing substantial. The Nose profiles of the CEB #13 So
lid and the North Fork Solid show significant gains with added velocity. The nose profile of the Barnes Flat Nose does respond to added velocity, but not as substantial. In the case of a Round Nose FMJ, its flip a coin, it might, it might go unstable before doing so as well. One would have to be way more specific to get a true answer.

Velocity is one of the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration;

#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........

mgstucson said:

4. Do the same with sectional density. Take an identical type of projectile, any projectile you prefer, and vary only the sectional density, and see is penetration changes. Since SD is a function of diameter and mass, this would need to be done in 2 parts also if you want to be thoroughly scientific.

Part 1: Take identical caliber bullets of the same type and vary only the weights, all other factors being equal, and see if weight's impact on SD changes penetration.

Part 2: Now take identical weight bullets of the same type, and vary only the caliber, all other factors being equal, and see if caliber's effect on SD changes penetration.

(You don't actually need to do any of this, we all know how it would turn out.)

Click to expand...

You are right about one thing, we do not need to do this, but since I already have similar test work it requires no efforts to accomplish. What you have above is a statement concerning Sectional Density, of which we both agree and is the basis for Factor #8........... Of course.......But here goes.

Part 1

A tad bit more velocity here with the 450 CEB #13 Solid probably gave it some extra penetration, but the results are the same........







Part 2



caliber same weight;

mgstucson said:

5. Where is your penetration comparison of a B&M 325gr 458 bullet at 2400fps compared to a BULLET OF IDENTICAL CONSTRUCTION a 458 Lott at 500gr and 2400fps? (you better have a long box to catch that 500gr monometal at 2400fps, it is going to be more than 52".) That would be a good SD comparison and energy comparison, all other factors being equal. Oh, you didn't do that one.

Click to expand...

You are correct, I have not tested or used the 500 Gr CEB #13 Solids. After working with the 450 #13 I never saw any reason at all for the 500 gr version, it was just not needed, even in 458 Lott. When you have enough penetration to go end to end on an elephant then I just did not see a need for more. I have used the 450s on hippo, buffalo and elephant. I have not hunted with 458 Lott since 2005 in which I had an altercation with a hippo at 10 steps, a Barnes FN Solid at 2275 fps put an end to that for me. 2400 fps in 458 Lott is not achievable by common man, without going over max pressures. The 2400 fps is a moot point in 458 Lott with 500 gr bullets. I can get 480s to 2300 and change and not exceed 62000 PSI. We can get the 450s to 2400-2450 fps depending on the powder and stay at or under 60000 PSI. No, I have not tested those for terminals since I was never going to use a 458 Lott in the field personally. I do help some friends with their 458 Lotts, we use the 450 Solids at or around 2350 fps depending on the rifle. They have all been extremely successful on hippo, buffalo and elephant with that.

Oh don't worry about the Terminal Boxes, we have more than enough to catch anything a man can carry.............

We have two of these boxes, put end to end I can catch nearly 11 ft of penetration. However the deepest I have had anything so far has been between 70-76 inches I believe, a little over 6 ft in this medium.......



I did test these 500 Barnes one time years ago in 458 Lott, but most certainly not at 2400 fps.......They did very well BTW and the Barnes FN Solid is a dandy bullet........I used them almost exclusively before the CEB #13s and North Fork designs. In my guns I mostly used the 450 version of the Barnes.......

mgstucson said:

6. Where is your penetration comparison of identical types of bullets one at 400gr 416 bullet at 2150fps, another 400gr 458 bullet at 2150fps, and another 400gr 500 bullet at 2150fps. That would be another good SD test. Oh, you didn't do that one either.

Click to expand...

We really need to test SD...... since we concur on where it belongs? Or, is your point more;

"Oh, you did not test that either".............. Hmmm....... I suspect your motives?

No, I have not tested 400 gr 458 and 416 at 2150 fps.... correct......... I do not have an identical 400 gr CEB #13 Solid with a .600 or better nose projection, we have the lever solid, but it is limited by its shorter lever nose projection, which prohibits depth of penetration compared to .600 nose projection, or even .700 nose projection. But I do have this;



This is where Twist Rate and Velocity come into effect with 416 caliber, 1:14 is not optimum for 400 gr bullets, even the best designs, velocity can make a big change with this bullet in .416.......... but, a faster twist rate of 1;12 makes a world of difference in stability of various, any, 400 gr .416s



And the 405 again in .500 caliber, but the Nose Projection above the top band limits its depth of penetration severely, more so than even SD can account for..........

mgstucson said:

You are a fine gentleman sir, and have done us all a great service by posting all the data you have here, and I for one appreciate that. You do yourself a great disservice by pretending that SD and ME are inconsequential numbers. This only harms your own credibility.

Click to expand...

Thank you............. However, make no mistake, I don't "Pretend" anything. I will let my Credibility stand on its own. Thank you again for the many kind words............ And, if I can assist, do not hesitate to ask.

And AGAIN;

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.


#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.


#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......



All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........


#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........

#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......


#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............



These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................

1. You talk about "Transferring" or "imparting" "trauma/energy" at least 8 times in the last 2 posts alone, and yet you say energy is "moot". Curious.

2. You post bullet weight and velocity on EVERY bullet you tested, and energy is simply a way of expressing weight and velocity. Yet you say energy is "useless". Curious.

3. You report weight on every bullet you test, but you don't include weight as one of YOUR 8 "Absolute" factors for PENETRATION. Curious.

The longer you talk, the "curious-er" you get.

I think your data shows very clearly that flat nose monometals are the best solids. That is certainly good news for lever action shooters, since they were shooting flat point bullets before they were "cool". Your data also shows that conventional softpoints and monometal expanding bullets are very good at "transferring" some "useless" factor (which shall not be named) to game animals that makes the dead. You also seem to be the only person on Africa Hunting that likes to hear himself talk more than me. That's something!

You are a good man Charlie Brown. Don't let anybody tell you different.

mgstucson said:

1. You talk about "Transferring" or "imparting" "trauma/energy" at least 8 times in the last 2 posts alone, and yet you say energy is "moot". Curious.

Click to expand...

And you still do not understand? I would think after at least 8 times mentioned and pointed out, that most folks would get it....................To me, its rather simple actually. Your Beginning Kinetic Energy Value does not tell us much of anything. Now, if it were possible to somehow calculate the energy/trauma transferred to target, and the destruction of tissue associated with a particular bullet, then that would actually be a number that had value.

mgstucson said:

2. You post bullet weight and velocity on EVERY bullet you tested, and energy is simply a way of expressing weight and velocity. Yet you say energy is "useless". Curious.

Click to expand...

Oh please feel free to calculate that Kinetic Energy Value if you like, no one is telling you to not do so. Maybe after you calculate that number, you can explain to us exactly what that is expressing, and how it directly relates to any of the factors of penetration or tissue destruction discussed. I know, perhaps you can explain exactly what that Kinetic Energy # means when you have a 550 Woodleigh FMJ and a 550 Woodleigh Soft point, both at the same velocity, with exact same Kinetic Energy Value, what does that number means and how does it relate to some sort of "Killing Power", or transfer of trauma determination. Both have exactly the same Kinetic Energy Value..... But both operate completely different once terminal penetration begins. What is the value of that number?

mgstucson said:

3. You report weight on every bullet you test, but you don't include weight as one of YOUR 8 "Absolute" factors for PENETRATION. Curious.

Click to expand...

The Factors of Terminal penetration have nothing to do with comparing one bullet to another bullet. They simply explain the factors involved and their importance for terminal penetration of solids. Weight would be accounted for in Factor #8 I would think. You do realize that Weight is included to calculate Sectional Density?

My take, individual mileage may vary:

The energy number is useless if it does not convert into, displayed penetration and tissue destruction / permanent relocation. If the bullet is up to the task, usually velocity increases that. Though, at some point some bullets seem to have a sweet spot of velocity vs penetration. As to, only small amounts of penetration is gained from relatively large velocity increases. Similar to velocity gains in ever increasing cartridge powder capacities of the same caliber.
If the bullet has right design and integrity to withstand higher velocity, that should enhance tissue destruction. That may have a point of diminishing returns also. Obviously a few believers of slower velocities on this forum, and in book print.

Properly designed and of proper construction bullets penetrate, at surprisingly low sectional density and velocity.

I do not use the energy conversion function on my chronographs nor pay attention to it if displayed on the screen, or where it is printed on factory ammunition. I have not looked at energy numbers in reloading manuals for over 20 years. Too many low integrity poor performing bullets with impressive energy numbers to serve a purpose for me.

Come on guys !!!

You crack me up

Kinetic Energy is half the mass (weight) multiplied by the velocity squared.

Of course, it matters, otherwise Zimbabwe would not use it to express their minimum requirement: "Class A Game 5300 Joule (3,909 ft/lbs.) Minimum caliber 9.2 mm / .366 in diameter (Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)".

Of course, it means nothing by itself. Note that Zimbabwe uses it to express their minimum requirement in the context of a minimum diameter, which itself implies a certain range of bullet weight, which in turn implies a certain range of bullet velocity. Note also that most other countries have simply used a minimum caliber (e.g. .375 H&H) which too implies in the context of a century of big game hunting experience a range of bullet weight (e.g. 300 gr) and velocity (e.g. 2,500 fps), hence a range of energy (e.g. 4,200 ft/lbs.).

Of course, when you know caliber/weight/velocity, you do not need to know energy, because energy is implied, being just the product of weight and velocity.

Of course, NO INDIVIDUAL VARIABLE ALONE SAYS IT ALL..

"My load shoots at x,xxx fps" alone means nothing! What caliber? What bullet weight?

"My load shoots xxx gr" alone means nothing! What caliber? What bullet velocity? What bullet type?

"My load generates x,xxx ft/lbs" alone means nothing! Light bullet at high speed? Heavy bullet at low speed?

Even "My load is 500 gr at 2,300 fps for 5,870 ft/lbs" does not tell us much about what it is for. What bullet?

Even "expanding" or "solid" does not tell the whole story anymore. Flat nose solid? Round nose solid? Monometal solid? Jacketed solid? Hollow point expanding monometal? Petals shedding? Non-petals shedding? Soft nose lead core? Bonded? etc. etc. etc, What terminal effects are you seeking? Yards of penetration? Explosive expansion in soft tissues? Controlled expansion along deep penetration? etc. etc. etc.

There simply is no "one fits all" anymore, long gone are the days of shooting solely-available military 8x57 or .303 ammo at everything, so comparisons need to be in context.

Sure, I bet that mgstucson knows that a 500 gr .458 TSX at 2,300 fps is deadly medicine on Buffalo, no need to calculate the energy!

And sure as well, I bet that if I ask michael458 if a 9.3x62 286 gr at 2,400 fps is legal for Buffalo in Zimbabwe, he will have to calculate its energy...

One Day... said:

Come on guys !!!

You crack me up

Kinetic Energy is half the mass (weight) multiplied by the velocity squared.

Of course, it matters, otherwise Zimbabwe would not use it to express their minimum requirement: "Class A Game 5300 Joule (3,909 ft/lbs.) Minimum caliber 9.2 mm / .366 in diameter (Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)".

Of course, it means nothing by itself. Note that Zimbabwe uses it to express their minimum requirement in the context of a minimum diameter, which itself implies a certain range of bullet weight, which in turn implies a certain range of bullet velocity. Note also that most other countries have simply used a minimum caliber (e.g. .375 H&H) which too implies in the context of a century of big game hunting experience a range of bullet weight (e.g. 300 gr) and velocity (e.g. 2,500 fps), hence a range of energy (e.g. 4,200 ft/lbs.).

Of course, when you know caliber/weight/velocity, you do not need to know energy, because energy is just the product of weight and velocity.

Of course, NO INDIVIDUAL VARIABLE ALONE SAYS IT ALL..

"My load shoots at x,xxx fps" alone means nothing! What caliber? What bullet weight?

"My load shoots xxx gr" alone means nothing! What caliber? What bullet velocity? What bullet type?

"My load generates x,xxx ft/lbs" alone means nothing! Light bullet at high speed? Heavy bullet at low speed?

Even "My load is 500 gr at 2,300 fps for 5,870 ft/lbs" does not tell us much about what it is for. What bullet?

Even "expanding" or "solid" does not tell the whole story anymore. Flat nose solid? Round nose solid? Monometal solid? Hollow point expanding monometal? Soft nose lead core? Bonded? etc. etc.

Sure, I bet that mgstucson knows that a 500 gr .458 TSX at 2,300 fps is deadly medicine on Buffalo, no need to calculate the energy!

And sure as well, if I bet that if I ask michael458 if a 9.3x62 286 gr at 2,400 fps is legal for Buffalo in Zimbabwe, he will have to calculate its energy...

Click to expand...

Kinetic energy yes it matters in comparison of caliber.
A 22-250 55gr bullet can have more energy than a 45-70 405gr safe for any rifle load.
So do you want the more ke load if you have a bear charging you or the less ke 405 gr ?
Me I want the 405gr

Some horses you can't even lead to water. This one is dead, so I am going to stop kicking.

The answer is BOTH...

And just to further clarify, for the benefit of those interested in understanding better what is being discussed, to answer michael458's question:

"Roughly the same Kinetic Energy with both bullets correct?..................
Which one of these two was able to "Transfer" more of that kinetic energy to target?"



The answer is BOTH (assuming neither punched through), but they each expanded the SAME energy DIFFERENTLY.

Both 550 gr bullets fired at the same velocity (e.g. ~2,100 fps) delivered / transferred the SAME kinetic energy (~5,400 ft/lbs). One (soft) did it creating a wider and shallower wound channel; the other (solid) did it creating a narrower and deeper wound channel.

Neither is better or worse than the other: they serve different purposes, even on the same animal.

The soft is the first shot for broadside, behind-the-shoulder Buffalo, with the aim of destroying heart and lungs (and not risking hitting a second animal behind it). The solid is the follow-up shot(s) at the same Buffalo running away from or toward the shooter, for lengthwise penetration to the vitals and destruction of major bones, either through hip, then paunch, to lungs from the rear side, or through head, then shoulder, to lungs from the front side.

As mentioned in my previous post: what terminal effect do you seek? This will determine what bullet you choose...


As to the original question "Why not a Dangerous Game lever?"

My own response would be that action type is fairly irrelevant (assuming reliability) as long as the rifle is strong enough to deliver bullets heavy enough, fast enough, hence with enough energy, to perform both above illustrations.

Practically speaking, this seems to require a bolt that "locks" in tenons because the combination of bullet weight and velocity, hence energy, creates pressures difficult to contain in an action that only "blocks" the bolt with a rear wedge as typical "western" lever actions do.

Whether the bolt "locks" by rotating in tenons (e.g. most typical turn bolts actions, modern lever actions such as Browning BLR, straight pull actions with rotating bolt head such as the Beretta BRX1), or whether the bolt "locks" by deploying cams in tenons (e.g. Sauer 90, Blaser R8), and whether the tenons are at the front of the action (most rifles) or at the rear of the action (e.g. Steyr Mannlicher, Sauer 90), or in the barrel itself (e.g. Blaser R8, Sauer 404) is irrelevant, all are stronger than a typical "western" lever action (e.g. Winchester 94).

Just in case anyone is interested and has a levergun that will fire it, Starline Brass now has 45-100 brass, (458x2.6) in stock and ready to ship. I was hoping to get a Win 1886 to fire this round, which will attain close to 458 WM ballistics. I backordered 1000 cases and they are mailing them this week. This brass has been hard to get for a LONG time. I also got my backordered 445 supermag brass a couple weeks ago as well. I had a 444 Marlin Guide Gun set back to a 445 Supermag to match my Dam Wesson 445 Supermag handgun. I am super stoked to have brass for this levergun now. Not powerful enough for Africa, but it sure is a handy woods gun in NA.

One Day... said:

The answer is BOTH...

And just to further clarify, for the benefit of those interested in understanding better what is being discussed, to answer michael458's question:

"Roughly the same Kinetic Energy with both bullets correct?..................
Which one of these two was able to "Transfer" more of that kinetic energy to target?"

View attachment 682084 View attachment 682085

The answer is BOTH (assuming neither punched through), but they each expanded the SAME energy DIFFERENTLY.

Both 550 gr bullets fired at the same velocity (e.g. ~2,100 fps) delivered / transferred the SAME kinetic energy (~5,400 ft/lbs). One (soft) did it creating a wider and shallower wound channel; the other (solid) did it creating a narrower and deeper wound channel.

Neither is better or worse than the other: they serve different purposes, even on the same animal.

The soft is the first shot for broadside, behind-the-shoulder Buffalo, with the aim of destroying heart and lungs (and not risking hitting a second animal behind it). The solid is the follow-up shot(s) at the same Buffalo running away from or toward the shooter, for lengthwise penetration to the vitals and destruction of major bones, either through hip, then paunch, to lungs from the rear side, or through head, then shoulder, to lungs from the front side.

As mentioned in my previous post: what terminal effect do you seek? This will determine what bullet you choose...


As to the original question "Why not a Dangerous Game lever?"

My own response would be that action type is fairly irrelevant (assuming reliability) as long as the rifle is strong enough to deliver bullets heavy enough, fast enough, hence with enough energy, to perform both above illustrations.

Practically speaking, this seems to require a bolt that "locks" in tenons because the combination of bullet weight and velocity, hence energy, creates pressures difficult to contain in an action that only "blocks" the bolt with a rear wedge as typical "western" lever actions do.

Whether the bolt "locks" by rotating in tenons (e.g. most typical turn bolts actions, modern lever actions such as Browning BLR, straight pull actions with rotating bolt head such as the Beretta BRX1), or whether the bolt "locks" by deploying cams in tenons (e.g. Sauer 90, Blaser R8), and whether the tenons are at the front of the action (most rifles) or at the rear of the action (e.g. Steyr Mannlicher, Sauer 90), or in the barrel itself (e.g. Blaser R8, Sauer 404) is irrelevant, all are stronger than a typical "western" lever action (e.g. Winchester 94).

Click to expand...

I don't think that anyone suggested that the Winchester 94 was strong enough to handle the pressure of a DG cartridge but the Winchester 86 and the Winchester 95 are completely different lockups. Both are certainly up to the task.

B0MBOY said:

And the action holds up to all that extra pressure?

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Still as smooth and tight as ever. Have never seen elk drop so fast and stay down for good as from one shot through the shoulders with a 405 grain hard cast at 2k+ FPS.

mgstucson said:

Just in case anyone is interested and has a levergun that will fire it, Starline Brass now has 45-100 brass, (458x2.6) in stock and ready to ship. I was hoping to get a Win 1886 to fire this round, which will attain close to 458 WM ballistics.

Click to expand...

What is the point of the longer case? 1886 is pretty much limited to 2.8x" OAL. All of my 400+ gr bullets are loaded into 45-70 cases in my 45-90.

I would like to play with a 50-110 necked down to .458. Basically a 458 Fuller but .3" longer. Should be able to get case capacity between 458 WM and Lott.

Joker12 said:

I don't think that anyone suggested that the Winchester 94 was strong enough to handle the pressure of a DG cartridge but the Winchester 86 and the Winchester 95 are completely different lockups. Both are certainly up to the task.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, agreed, but only to a point

The .45-70, .45-90 (Win 86) and .405 (Win 95) are certainly quantum leaps of power from the 30-30 et al. but they still pale, even with modern loads, compared to even the .416 Rem or .458 Win, not to mention to .458 Lott, and the .45-70, .45-90 (Win 86) and .405 (Win 95) are the most powerful cartridges that Winchester chamber in their various lever actions.

Interestingly, I note that the Browning BLR that is a lever action with rotating bolt head and that is chambered for the .450 Marlin, could clearly handle the .458 Win case head (the .450 Marlin is a shortened .458 Win) and length (the BLR is chambered in .300 Win Mag as well, and .458 Win & .300 Win have the same SAAMI COAL of 3.34"). Yet it is not offered in .458 Win.

I wonder why...

Technical concern or marketing dead end?

This being said, can you kill a Buffalo or Lion with a modern .45-70, .45-90, or .405 Win load from a modern Winchester 86 or 95; or with a .450 Marlin load from a Marlin 1895M or Browning BLR; or with a .460 or .500 S&W load from a Big Horn Armory 89; and why not a .444 Buffalo Bore load with heavy hard cast bullet from a Marlin 444? Absolutely!

Is it a stunt? I do not think so, given the right circumstances and the right shot(s), but there is no escaping the fact that you are on the low edge of what over a century of conventional field experience considers the minimum safe power.

WHAT'S A ZIM BUCK WORTH? AND WE ARE USING THEIR MATH TO MAKE A POINT?

"Is it a stunt? I do not think so, given the right circumstances and the right shot(s), but there is no escaping the fact that you are on the low edge of what over a century of conventional field experience considers the minimum safe power."

Thank you for that @One Day... I hunt levers because I love them. I did not think of my 2 buff hunts as stunts; it's just how I hunt. And it was not undertaken willy-nilly.

expresshunt said:

After guiding 900 plus Buffalo etc hunts.. the only rifle/cartridge one shot that killed 100% was when the heart was taken out.. or above center through both lungs.. or brain. I'm referring to killed 100%. (not 99 or 95%).. as we all know the 1% is what gets client or ph killed.
So when guiding, most of us want the hunter to only fire when his chosen rifle/gun bullet/arrow will reliably reach and penetrate the above mentioned targets.. then after the first shot,.. personally I ( pre) ask for follow-up shots until it is down. Sorry but I don't do waiting, smokes or such...
My no1 priority is not to be killed at work by a Buffalo etc.. ( or AD)..
Whilst hunters/ clients can try to bring/ invent/ acquire the best (at most any angle/ situation ) cartridges and bullet combos.. that is fine.. I've been there and done that myself.. but now after 28 year.. I long ago learnt its totally about perfect shot placement and damage, then it dies.. I've seen many slightly ill placed 577, 500, 458lott, 458wm bullets from experinced hunters... more so than 375H&H etc... and when I say ill placed I mean the bullet may have slightly missed, even by 1/2" or only taken 1 lung.. or low both lungs.. each looking good, lots of blood etc, but resulting in very live and angry dangerous follow up.
Personally.. Ive read of too many PHs who won't get home ever again.. my friend Glenn G I visited in hospital smashed up very very bad.. almost killed... 2 weeks later I had a confrontation with only binos in hand, 10yds from the 4x4..
So the hunt to me has 2 factors.. 1/ the clients first shot, waiting until the heart/ lung (or brain) can be taken out.. then all will end well... or 2/ we are being charged straight away.. or following up with potential change.. now only 1 thing will 100% kill the Buffalo about to paste you.. a Brain shot.. a solid or well constructed tough expanding bullet... 100% I'm saying.
And if I miss, I need another round placed better.. and if I miss again yet another better aimed and fired shot.
Every day for our hunt season, I go into the the field, my gear must be 100%.. all our rounds must feed.. none can be hot loads and jam.. We must rely on each other, and have a plan.
Yep a 454 Cassul will work at 40yds side on.. yes a 318, 45-70 or 375 or 458GBFKR will work passing through the right spot.
Sorry for the bla bla.. JMO
Back to lever actions.. a guide who knows his 4570 well, is a few rounds better of than an empty double in a battle.

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Okay. So leaving out the "guide who knows his 4570 well" would you prefer to see a client show up with a 45/70 or something with somewhat more power, say .375 H&H, .458 Win, etc?